Talk:College football national championships in NCAA Division I FBS/Archive 2009
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Gross misunderstanding of "Consensus"
Resolved by consensus edits regarding the term "consensus" |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
There is a gross misunderstanding of "consensus national champion" selectors in this article. The article cites this NCAA webpage as the basis for the selectors that are considered consensus in this article. This reads way more into the information on that page than is actually there and thus violates WP:OR. "Consensus National Champions", as listed by NCAA on that website, refers only to national championship picks from 1950-2003 and utilizes the AP,UPI, FWAA, NFF as reference selectors. Nowhere are selectors designated as "consensus" for any other time period! Actually, there is no designation of any "consensus selector" only what are considered "consensus picks" beginning with the two poll system in 1950. The "Retroactive Poll Champions" selections listed on that website does not imply any endorsement or coronation by the NCAA that they are "consensus" as is implied in the wikipedia article. This NCAA webpage simply includes an abbreviated list of those that are listed in the official [ ' record book (page 76)]. In the official NCAA record book, the NCAA has only tried to designate what it considers to be "Major Selectors", that is those with national scope, and it has listed 37 of them. It implies absolutely nothing about "consensus selectors". The word "consensus" is being completely misused, and at best, should only be used to highlight selections in the time frame listed by the NCAA (1950 to present) and/or where both major polls (and perhaps later the BCS) are in agreement. The current wikipedia article needs an overhaul to remove the improper notion of the existence of "consensus" selectors for any time period prior to 1950 as this is not indicated on the NCAA website or, more importantly, in the NCAA record book. Unless a reference can be found defining "consensus national champion", such as how it is done for All-American consensus designations based on receiving a minimal percentage of all selections, the word should be removed prior to 1950 or risk violating WP:OR. If there is any factual evidence not to transform this page to remove what appears to be the inappropriate notion of "consensus" prior to 1950, please post them here. CrazyPaco (talk) 19:53, 23 November 2008 (UTC) If I come off too strong, I'm sorry. However, as far as I know, the titles in bold are consenus. I do not know who or what considers them that. But this is what the article goes by and so am I. Bcspro (talk) 01:18, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
I believe user:Iowa 13 created the tables. Bcspro (talk) 01:21, 24 November 2008 (UTC) I agree that the article displays a gross misunderstanding of the term "consensus national champion." Ohio State, for example, was listed as having 7 consensus national championships...except that Ohio State itself does not claim a "consensus national championship" for the 1970 or 1961 seasons (where their only major select was the FWAA), only a national championship. I therefore added some tOSU sources where it is acknowledged that the 2002 national championship was tOSU's first consensus national championship since 1968.[1][2] I don't mean to pick on Ohio State, as I'm sure there are many other national championships listed in the table that weren't actually consensus championships, but it calls into question the accuracy of much of the section.-PassionoftheDamon (talk) 21:26, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
I have not read any discussion on this topic so forgive me if this was already metioned. For the tables we should replace consensus with major meaning the AP, Coaches, NFF, etc not the sagarin, computer polls and others. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.11.2.51 (talk) 19:35, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
I would like to get feedback for the All-time year-by-year table. All champions listed in the NCAA record book list of all-time champions from "major selectors" would be included. College Football Data Warehouse recognized selections would be in bold, consensus selections (1950-current according to NCAA record book) would be underlined, and we can keep retroactive selections italicized (although that it sort of unnecessary as they are described already in the tables of selectors). This would essentially replicate what was previously attempted in extending the consensus selectors to the earlier times but avoid the violation of WP:OR. CrazyPaco (talk) 06:29, 28 January 2009 (UTC) |
Do soccer games belong in the list?
Whatever Parke said, I don't think soccer games belong in the list of college football championships. All the games before 1875 were soccer games. The 1869 Princeton-Rutgers game might have looked like American football or rugby or something else, but it was played by the rules of "Association Football" written by the Football Association in London. That game is now called soccer in the U.S. Rugby-style football between American college teams began in 1875. --1spendy (talk) 18:29, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
- As long as that is what the record books show as the starting year (1869), I would say that it should probably stay listed as the starting year. Cardsplayer4life (talk) 04:26, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
- Agree with Cardsplayer4life. It has long been established that the 1869 game between Rutgers and Princeton was the first collegiate football game. Have to avoid OR. CrazyPaco (talk) 00:06, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
References
I think someone needs to add a column, particularly to the "National Champions (Year-by-Year)" table, to include in-line citations in order to verify the correctness of the individual selectors. Strikehold (talk) 22:25, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
- See the above discussion on fallacy of "consensus" selectors above. The selectors, in my opinion, should be either from the list in the NCAA record book or the more inclusive list on College Football Data Warehouse. This would negate the need for the line by line citation because all information would come from one or both of these sources, and would eliminate most bias in inclusion or exclusion of selections/selectors by being, for the most part, all-encompassing. CrazyPaco (talk) 00:33, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
- Okay, I admit I didn't read all of the above conversation. I would support the CFB Datawarehouse list, as it looks very comprehensive and from firsthand experience it is a pretty good source in and of itself. Strikehold (talk) 00:47, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
Info box
Having Florida as the "current champion" strikes me as original research or POV. The article talks about all the orgs that give NCs, and recognizes Utah as the "current champion" of a few of those. Why, then, does Florida get the inclusion in the info box? And, yes, I hate the BCS as much as those that...well...hate the BCS. I say, playoffs, but that's not what we have. Newguy34 (talk) 16:36, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
- Probably a good move. I was attempting to leave out contentious information such as "Team with most championships" or "Conference with most championships" or anything like that, since there is obviously big disagreement (as outlined in past conversations here) on what that means. I didn't realize at the time that including the Florida Gators as the current champ would be contentious, but as you point out it is. Cardsplayer4life (talk) 07:54, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
- Revised infobox is looking good. Newguy34 (talk) 08:23, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
Harris Poll
Why the inclusion of the Harris Poll in the Year-by-Year? Good question, because no one thinks the final Harris Poll #1 is a national championship. Unfortunately, the year-by-year table is comprehensive listing of poll championships listed in the 2008 NCAA Record Book (see page 81). To remove Harris arbitrarily might be construed the same as removing all the other national poll championships that are not AP or Coaches' poll selections and that, unfortunately, violates No Original Research rule of Wikipedia. We all know that since 1950, that popularly no one considers the non-AP/Coaches poll selections to be national champions, and that is why there is a separate table of just the polls. However, it is impossible to determine the general national consensus prior to the two poll system with so many other selectors and a much less standardized and established system. The NCAA doesn't even attempt to decipher this, deciding instead to list "major selections" and leaving it up for the reader to decide. CFBDW has an even more comprehensive listing, but then does try to decide which are most legitimate and that is why that is now used in the table instead of consensus (because consensus as defined by the NCAA does not exist before the two poll system initiated in 1950)....that and because the co-collaborator of CFBDW is actually cited by the NCAA as having been consulted on the national championship section (satisfying expert knowledge criteria of Wikipedia). The problem is that there are really only two readily available comprehensive listings of national championship selectors: the NCAA record book and College Football Data Warehouse, everything else out there is not as comprehensive or a distillation of those two. I would love to get rid of Harris on the year-by-year table, but I do not know how to do it for a comprehensive poll listing using the NCAA Record Book as a source without violating WP:OR. A small consolation is the fact that many early polls, including the AP, were also conducted prior to the bowls so it is sort of a throwback poll. Perhaps instead of National Championships (Year-by-Year) the heading should be changed to National Poll Champions (Year-by-Year) as this is how it is headlined in the record book. As it is, strictly sticking to the mostly neutral third-party source material seems the best way to keep this opinionated and controversial article as non-biased as possible. Please feel free to list other possible solutions that can maintain the comprehensive nature of the poll and not violate the original research rule. CrazyPaco (talk) 20:34, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
- I went ahead and changed the section heading to try to diffuse some of the controversy. It now reads National Poll Champions and Championship Selections (Year-by-Year). Awkward, but I think it is accurate and straight forward. Please leave suggestions. CrazyPaco (talk) 21:18, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
- After thought and discussion, I have decided to reverse course and remove the Harris Poll. As BCSpro has noted, it does not conduct a final poll, nor does it name or reward a national champion. It is commissioned by the BCS only to help determine its standings. I do believe the NCAA Record is in error in listing this poll because it misinterprets its purpose. Because the poll has only existed since 2005, I believe the editors of the NCAA Records Book are in error in including it and they have likely not consulted the outside experts they seemingly did for their original list of "major selectors".
- .... Further strengthening my opinion that the editors of the NCAA record book have gotten sloppy is the disagreement between CFBDW and the NCAA record book as to Harry DeVold's final selection as national champion in 2006. The NCAA has it listed as Florida and CFBDW has it as Ohio State. In addition, for 2007 the NCAA seems to have replaced listing all individual selectors that participate in the BCS system with just listing the final BCS champion. It is noted just after that "Present Major Selectors" include BCS*, AP, FW, NFF, and Coaches (it mistakenly lists the Coaches' twice). The * notation next to BCS also mistakenly states that it includes all selectors which is also incorrect as the Seattle Times selected Missouri. Thankfully, I have yet to find discrepancies between the NCAA and CFBDW prior to this. However, it seems that seeing where the NCAA goes with this in their next record book will be useful.
- ..... I have therefore gone ahead and removed the Harris poll titles from the Year-by-Year chart while adding notes as to why they are excluded from the list that is otherwise derived in its entirely from the NCAA Record Book. This is uncomfortably treading along WP:OR, and can certainly be reversed (though my guess is that no one is dying to put it back in the chart). Again, the primary concerns are compromising the chart with original research that may lead to later biased-edits. Please leave commentary addressing this issue if you feel strongly about it. thank you. CrazyPaco (talk) 00:57, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
New organized article
According to previous discussion, I have gone ahead and reorganized the article. The goal was primarily to eliminate original research from the article so that it was present as a non-biased delivery of information on college football national championships. To this end I have relied primarily on the official NCAA Division I College Football Records Book and College Football Data Warehouse as reliable, expert, third-party sources of information. Because national championship counts are often controversial, hopefully the sole reliance on these sources will make it standardized and comprehensive enough to provide non-biased information and allow readers to draw their own conclusions about a championship's legitimacy. To this end, I have tried to eliminate as much interpretation from the article as possible and standardize the information presented. I also reorganized the sections so that they would more logically flow together. I hope these changes have upgraded and strengthened the article, and will also make it easier to maintain. I would like to note that I did verify the information in the CFBDW Recognized National Championship tables and in Poll-era tables, but I have not yet had time to verify all of the information in Year-by-Year and Total All-Time tables from the NCAA Record Book. CrazyPaco (talk) 23:08, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
Stop putting "mythical" in the top summary of this article
Resolved |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Please stop putting mythical in the top of this article, this is considered vandalism to wikipedia. The use of the term mythical is putting an opinion into an article and presenting it as fact. Wikipedia is not the place to be airing grievances about the college football system in NCAA D1A. If you want to create a sub-section regarding the OPINION that people have in terms of the disagreement about the current system. The use of the term "mythical" does not belong in the upper summery section of this article. There are no actual NEWS articles that refer to the use of the term "mythical national championship" the only use of this term is through blogs or opinion pieces in articles. There are no official documents anywhere that refer to this championship as mythical, and it does both the article and Wikipedia as a whole a huge dis-service by trying to portray an opinion as a fact.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.96.67.105 (talk) 02:18, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
<---(Moving indent back) Fine, it is a colloquial term; So are all the other examples I gave. (Someone not familiar with college football could read a phrase like "XXXX redshirted their first season at the University of Southern California" and conclude they wore a red shirt the whole year; Just because everyone in the world is not familiar with a term is not grounds for removing it.) Your essential argument seems to be that the word "mythical" is a pejorative term. That is the same argument some non-science-literate individuals use when they confuse a scientific Theory with the commonly confused word "theory". (They mean dramatically different things in case you were wondering; and no I am not turning this into a science debate, haha.) Nevertheless, even if it were indeed a pejorative term, as you seem to be claiming, that would still not mean it should be removed. The phrase itself means a certain thing that is clearly understood to those who know about it. (also, the term is in quotation marks, clearly distinguishing it from something that is being stated as a clear cut fact, and linked to for further information for those that might not know what it means) It is indeed vandalism to continually remove/change content on a wikipedia article when the consensus has been determined not to take that action. (which is clearly the case here; You are the only one arguing the other side and several people keep reverting your edits.) This is especially the case when you go beyond the previously invoked three revert rule. Cardsplayer4life (talk) 20:37, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
|
Contradiction tag
I see no real contradiction between the articles. The main contradiction is in how the Top 10 article is counting its national championships as it appears to be using two different methods: 1) CFBDW for the Ivys and 2) individual university's own claims for the others. Other methods to calculate championships, such as from an individual school's individual claims, may be valid as there is no one way to calculate totals, and that is certainly could be viewed as a legitimate way to calculate them. In fact those number could be added to this article and I myself have contemplated that. However, using two different methods in the same chart, such as the top 10 article does, is inconsistent and therefore I feel can be misleading and probably violates WP:SYN. In contrast, I feel this national championship article is well referenced with neutral 3rd-party sources (NCAA, CFBDW). I see little contradiction of this article with the Top 10 article though, just its own internal contradictions.
A list of universities' official claims could be useful in this article. However, such a list wouldn't be as extensive because it will be very hard to weed through every school's claims (I guess via their media guides), and some claims (see Boston College) are very dubious. However, I guess it would be just official school claims, so it wouldn't matter how dubious they may be to the public at large. However, determining what is a school's official claim vs that of a fan involved in boosterism may be difficult. However, I think it would be beneficial to collect opinions on whether to add such a Nat. Champ. table to this article, under a new additional subheading, as long as each entry was referenced as is done in the Top 10 article.
As a side point, the entirety of the top 10 article seems to violate WP:NPOV and WP:OR as well, since it arbitrarily decided to cut off the list at 10. It also duplicates NCAA division I football win-loss records. I can't figure out why such an article is necessary, it borders on WP:Spam in my opinion. CrazyPaco (talk) 04:10, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with the last paragraph (well, probably all three, but especially the last one). Why not the "Top 10" based on fight songs, or uniforms, or cheerleaders (yes, 'SC wins!), or any other arbitrary distinction? I think the Top 10 article is a good AfD candidate, which would also solve the contradiction issue. My two cents (well, less given the market's performance lately). Newguy34 (talk) 04:20, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
- As is, it should be AfD and I don't think it would survive, but I'd like to give the editors a chance to address the issues. I've commented as such on the disscusion for that article. I hate nominating any article for AfD (I'm sort of an inclusionist), but it is just so arbitrary with the cut-off at 10. I certainly won't stand in the way of an AfD nomination for it. CrazyPaco (talk) 05:20, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
- Ok, nothing has been addressed in the Top 10 article or on its discussion page in over two months. Anyone want to nominate it for AfD or redirect it to NCAA Division I football win-loss records? ACrazyPaco (talk) 04:34, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
- As is, it should be AfD and I don't think it would survive, but I'd like to give the editors a chance to address the issues. I've commented as such on the disscusion for that article. I hate nominating any article for AfD (I'm sort of an inclusionist), but it is just so arbitrary with the cut-off at 10. I certainly won't stand in the way of an AfD nomination for it. CrazyPaco (talk) 05:20, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
New NCAA record book
The 2009 Official NCAA Football Records Book is out. The Official NCAA Records book list of "Major Selectors" selections is the basis for the Major National Poll Champions and Championship Selections (Year-by-Year) table in the article. The list of National Champions selected by "major selectors" in this table is essentially identical to that in the record books. Through 2006, the criteria of the champions listed in the records book is consistent, with the exception that the use of the Harris Poll since 2005 is in complete error since, as noted in the table's introduction, the Harris Poll specifically states it does not name a national champion. However there are now additional discrepancies and issues with the champions from 2007 and 2008 as listed in the records books that I think warrant consideration and discussion. It seems that recent additions to this list in the official records books have been added in a manner inconsistent with previous years revealing that the more recent listings of selections in the records books are incomplete and, frankly, sloppy.
In the 2008 Official NCAA Record Book LSU was listed as the champion for 2007 and all selectors are listed as selecting LSU. This list of 2007's "major selectors" consolidated some of the "major selectors" previously listed separately under the "BCS", and for LSU this resulted in an abbreviated/incomplete list of "major selectors" compared to previous seasons. In the 2008 record book, Dunkel was listed separately, but incorrectly included in the list selecting LSU in 2007, when in fact it had selected USC. In the 2009 Records Book, it has been corrected to show that the Dunkel actually picked USC as its 2007 selection and the 2009 records book now has USC listed separately as a champion.
The result is for the 2007 season, LSU and USC (Dunkel) are now listed as championship selections. However, another designated major selector (Seattle Times A&H) picked Missouri in 2007, but the Tigers are not listed as a selection in the official records book despite Seattle Times A&H selections being listed separately in previous seasons. This is true for the 2008 season as Utah is not listed as a championship selection despite its selection by the three previously designated "major selectors". The issue is, for the 2007 and 2008 seasons, the record book is not listing the all of the selections from the "major selectors", and because of the error correction, there is now a discrepancy on which selections/selectors are listed in the records book, seemingly giving undue preference to some over others mainly due to sloppy error correction. It seems to me that the NCAA records book is no longer adding selections in a consistent or well thought out manner, beginning in 2005 when it erroneously started listing Harris as a selector. Potentially, only near unanimous selections in 2005 and 2006 prevented additional omissions for those seasons.
The question is how to continue with the chart: either 1) adding all selections that have been named by the selectors designated as "major" in the NCAA records book (as the article's table has done so far), ear-regardless of the teams themselves being listed as selections (e.g. Utah 2008); or 2) using the inconsistently applied listing of the teams selected in the records book (seemingly unfairly including USC (2007) but not Missouri (2007) or Utah (2008))? CrazyPaco (talk) 07:50, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
Semi-protected status for this article?
Lots of vandalism and unsourced edits. Thoughts? CrazyPaco (talk) 20:51, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
- That'd be good, especially given the time of year we are in and the resulting rivalries, etc. QueenofBattle (talk) 21:07, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
Thoughts?—NMajdan•talk 18:56, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
- Decapatalizing the title to "national football championship" is probably more accurate because "NCAA Division I FBS National Football Championship" isn't an official title. As it stands, the title may be misinterpreted that it is a championship awarded by the NCAA, instead of a broader idea of a championship awarded by various organizations to teams competing within the NCAA Division 1 FBS. I would be ok with the move. CrazyPaco (talk) 19:04, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
- Then, on thinking about it with FBS being such a new term and the article covering the entire history of championships, perhaps it should be moved to something else: College football national championship (highest level of play) or College football national championship (NCAA Divsion 1 FBS) or College football national championship (top level)? CrazyPaco (talk) 23:20, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
- Actually, for the title it wouldn't be accurate, in terms of grammar, with the exception of a, an, the, of, for, and other minor words in a title, all others should be capitalized.76.19.168.81 (talk) 02:34, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
Claimed titles table
I've completed in my sandbox of a table of sourced claims on national championships by every applicable school. Input on how to integrate into this article, or into its own separate article would be appreciated. I would think it may fit either as the lead table (because the infoboxes for each team used "Claimed national titles") or to slip it in right after the first table derived from the NCAA Records Book (which I believe is probably better). I also think the table of CFBDW FBS National Champions should probably be eliminated. There seems to be no necessity to have this duplicative table.
The information in the table and sources must specifically indicate which national titles the school claims and come from the institution itself (either the athletic website or media guide in most cases). Please let me know if you any thoughts or objections to me including this list in this article. CrazyPaco (talk) 02:01, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
- The table of National championship claims by school is now inserted into the article. CrazyPaco (talk) 23:09, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Information about this article
I thought it might be worth it to provide a simple description about the purpose and content of this article for new editors who may not be familiar with the topic on what is a reasonably controversial topic.
This article attempts to provide and overview of the concept of college football national champions for the entirety of the history of the sport. A primary point for this article is that there is not now, nor ever has been an "official" NCAA national champion in FBS/D1A football. Therefore, there is no "official" publication or website beyond those of the individual independent selectors, of which the current AP and Coaches' polls are only two, listing yearly national championships. The closest the sport has ever had to a true championship is the modern BCS Championship game which began with the 1998 football season. However, the current BCS Championship Game is a BCS Championship, not an NCAA one, and the winner of the BCS is contractually awarded only the National Championships of the Coaches' Poll and the National Football Foundation.
Therefore, throughout college football history, each national championship selection, and corresponding commentary or decisions on the vailidity of various selections, in actuality represent only individual opinions (or the tabulation of opinions). Because Wikipedia is an encyclopedia that depends on the major tenants of No Original Research and Neutral Point of View, it is not appropriate for a Wikipedia article to comment on the validity of one selector or selection over another.
Thus, Wikipedia relies on expert Reliable Sources to provide an overview of the topic, and the prevailing consensus is that one of the most reliable and neutral of these is the Offical NCAA College Football Records Book (see page 76-81). The NCAA, with consultation from contemporary college football historians, has listed in its official records book a subset of national championship selectors deemed to be "major" for which the criteria is being "national in scope either through distribution in newspaper, television, radio and/or computer online". Therefore, the first table of National Championships in the article reproduces the list of all-time champions from "major" selectors exactly as it is found in the Official NCAA Records Book. This source is the basis for all other lists that may appear on the NCAA's website and therefore the Records Book list is seen as the "more official" or "more primary" source. Whether you or your school's official count agrees with the listings, the totals from that table are duplicated from reliable sourced material and do not in any way reflect the opinions of the editors of this article, but rather reflect the opinions of the college football historians that have worked with the NCAA to compile its list.
The second table of National Champions reproduces selections from College Football Data Warehouse, which is arguably the most heavily trafficked, popularly utilized, and widely cited historical college football resource on the internet. The content of this website is in part contributed by well-respected contemporary college football historian Tex Noel. The included table reproduces College Football Data Warehouse's singular opinion on the most legitimate national championship selections for each season and provides the article with a more selective all-time opinion/list than the inclusive NCAA one in the first table. This table provides an alternative opinion on the subject, as it is not derivative of the NCAA list, although it is consistent with it since the CFBDW selection for any particular season is always listed among those in the NCAA Official Records Book. It is recognized that this table represents only one opinion on this topic. A consensus for the inclusion of the CFBDW table was obtained because it is an alternative viewpoint and is a widely cited "selection of yearly selections" by a seemingly neutral "expert" opinion. It is also beneficial that it is available on-line which also permits the easy verification of edits to this article. Again, this Wikipedia article makes no statement as to the legitimacy or authoritativeness of the CFBDW list. As opinions will differ with those of this resource, the reader is directed to the articles on individual football teams for alternative national championship claims and counts.
The third table lists only the Poll Era National Champions, which is strictly a factual list of the compilation of opinions represented in those individual selectors, which post 1950, has generally been the most popularly accepted selectors.
In conclusion, this National Championship article attempts to provide the reader with three different interpretations of national champions 1) the more inclusive NCAA Championship list found in the Official NCAA College Football Records Book 2) an alternative viewpoint represented by the intermediately selective CFBDW selections, and 3) the major poll selections which started in 1936 with the AP and 1950 with the Coaches Poll. The goal of the article, in an attempt to maintain the WIkipedia policies of No Original Research and Neutral Point of View, is to present the reader with more variety, more comprehensive data, and more references than most other websites and publications that list yearly college football national champions. In attempting to do so, the article rightfully makes no comment as to which lists or totals are more legitimate, instead leaving it to the reader to decide, and suggesting additional resources by which the reader can explore the topic. CrazyPaco (talk) 18:39, 14 June 2009 (UTC)